Ben Hershleder is an old friend from film school who now works as an Avid Certified Instructor and freelance editor. Ben's credits include two years at E Entertainment television editing such shows as "True Hollywood Story", "The Howard Stern Show", and "Celebrity Profile," among others. As a freelance editor, he's cut independent feature films and most recently an episode of the upcoming Fox series, "In Search Of," produced by Haxan Films (the guys who made The Blair Witch Project). Ben's also directed several short films, including Paul McCall, which won numerous awards including the University Emmy Award for Best Comedy.

Ben was nice enough to talk for a while, so there's a lot in here. But if you're interested in editing, you might get a lot out of what he has to say.

So without further ado...

Filmmaker.Com: So Ben, tell us a bit about what an editor does.

Ben: Well, it can range. You have some editors who are very specialized, who cut only commercials or music videos or narrative projects or that don't do any visual effects of any kind. And then there are a great many Avid editors who do it all. They create the graphics, either in the Avid and/or with other applications like Photoshop, and that also do sound design, the sound finishing, right in the Avid. Which a great many network and cable stations do these days as a cost and time effective measure.

But essentially, what an editor does is put all the pieces of a show together in one way or another, which can include the graphics and audio as well. We're responsible for bringing out the client's conception of what the show should be, and at the same time collaborating to bring it to an even better place. They're the producer and director's hands as well as the sounding board for the producer/director to knock ideas around.

FMC: How'd you get to where you are?

Ben: I was first exposed to the Avid in grad film school at Florida State University. We got one our second year of study. Essentially they dumped a bunch of new boxes on us. This was 1994. I knew nothing. Up to that point, I'd been cutting on a flatbed and really basic video editing equipment, essentially cuts only, in my undergrad film school days.

Now at this point, editing as a career was the farthest thing from my mind, let alone editing on a computer. And if I remember right, I think the first version of the software that I played on was probably version 4.5 and here we are at version 10 today. So I learned a little bit of it, and cut two projects on the Avid in school.

Flash forward a few months. I'm graduated. Living in Orlando, FL. I got lucky by being hired to teach a film class at my alma mater University of Central Florida. Since I was part time at the University I needed more income, and two years earlier I'd done some teaching for Full Sail (a for-profit school in Orlando), so I gave them a call. I started teaching flatbed editing and some film production stuff there and quickly they wanted me to learn an editing system called the Montage so I could teach that.

Well, every time I went in there to get trained on it, it crashed, it didn't work, and after having worked with the Avid in the past I couldn't believe how clunky and un-user friendly the Montage's interface was. I literally told them, "if you guys get an Avid, I'll teach that." Next thing you know, Montage is out. Avids are in. Good news for me.

So I basically developed a curriculum and at the same time was reading the manual to get trained trying to teach myself as best I could. I read the entire version 5.5 manual. Doesn't' mean I understood everything, but I read it. Luckily I had several savvier friends I could ask questions.

So I was teaching it. And I learned a lot. You have to really understand something to be able to teach it. And reading the manual exposed me to tons of functions.

It was during this time that I edited a feature, then I did a trailer for them, and I did some other freelance work. But after a year and a half, I was pretty restless. So I decided to move to Los Angeles where there was obviously more work.

Now mind you, I didn't just jump in a car and move out. I did as much research as I thought I needed to. Made a lot of phone calls and faxed a lot of resumes to different post-production houses and production companies. I was able to get that information by going to my local library and looking at "The Hollywood Reporter Bluebook" and another resource book called "The LA 411." Although I didn't use the next book, I recommend it also, and that's the "Hollywood Creative Directory" which is updated frequently and I think has a web site too.

So it looked like I had several good prospects before moving out. I made a two week trip out, to do "meet and greets" and cultivate the possibility of more work.

So a few months later, I make the move. I get to town, start to re-contact these people who were really positive. And one company had gone out of business, a couple others just hired staff people.

I was scrambling at that point. So, I bought, within a day, the most recent copy of "LA 411" and started phoning around. By pure luck I called a company in Burbank. And again, by sheer luck, I ended up talking to a woman who was the director of Avid training. I remember thinking to myself, "I don't need more training. I need a job."

When she asked me what I'd been doing before I moved out, I was kind of embarrassed to say that I'd been doing mostly training. because at this point I didn't really fully understand that they WERE an Avid training center. I'd never heard of anything like that. We hit it off, and she asked me to come in for an interview. It turned out that someone at a lower position at the company was moving up, and they had an unadvertised opening. So she hired me.

That was nine days after I got to LA. Pretty fortunate really. Ultimately, I was very quickly certified by Avid Technology to teach their intro course. And in the following year with them, I was certified to teach several other classes.

FMC: So you didn?t just randomly show up in LA and say "I want to be an editor."

Ben: Nope. So there I was, teaching people from all the major networks. ABC, CBS, NBC and major production companies and post houses. And they were working and making good money, and after a year it made sense that, you know I?ve got the skills, it?s time to put them to use.

FMC: Is editing for television shows different from editing a movie?

Ben: Yeah, it's vastly different. The projects I'd worked on, as far as narrative goes, a feature film and several shorts films, were low-budget affairs. Which really meant that the post-production schedule was whatever-it-was, there was no real deadline. That's probably one of the biggest things, really.

In television, you've got air dates that have to be met. And the pace can be pretty crazy, depending on the show. Like with Howard Stern, you have to cut a show in two days.

FMC: How did that work?

The show is taped in New York, and during that taping what's created is what's known as a 'line cut,' which is an edit created live as events are happening. You may have seen it in movies or something, it's when the director's saying 'Take camera 1. Take camera 2, take camera 4.' And all those decisions are put onto the master tape in what appears to be a fully edited program. It's like live TV, but we call it 'live-to-tape' since it's not being broadcast.

FMC: So what do you get to edit, if it's already pre-edited?

Ben: The producers in New York give us the line cut along with the key or essential isolated cameras, so there's one tape that has nothing but 'Camera 1' looking at Howard. And another called 'Camera 2' that looks just at the guest. And other might be looking at Robin, and a fourth might be a wide shot of the studio for example.

What the producer does is decide what sections of the show they want to edit down and use as part of the 1/2 hour episode, using the line cut as a guide. Then using the Avid, what we're able to do is a process called 'grouping' whereby I can make the line cut and the individual isolated cameras be locked together. They play in sync on one screen, divided up like the beginning of the Brady Bunch, with one camera position in each box.

This makes it possible to quickly go in and make changes and fixes to the line cut. So once we have the content figured out and fixed the way we like it, then we use pre-made graphic elements that are used for the 'show open' where the TV explodes and the camera spins around Howard. Then there are graphic elements at the beginning and end of segments called 'bumpers' that have to be added. Then we also cut in the video shot by Mike Gange. That is, the 'behind-the-scenes' stuff most often seen at the end of the show.

Then we also do the sound mix, which is more than just adjusting levels. It also includes stripping out audio that was in the studio, like some sound effects and music that were used in the actual radio show. It probably has to do with rights clearances.

Once we have the show roughly to 'time' meaning that the duration of the show is somewhere between 29:30 and 30:30 minutes long, we make a VHS copy and by five o'clock we FedEx it overnight to New York for approval and notes.

FMC: Wow, sounds like a lot of work. How much time did that take?

The producing team is very prepared. The grouping process in the Avid is fast and pretty simple. So everything I've described is done in about seven hours.

The next day, the producers have gotten the notes from New York and those changes and fixes are implemented and the show is 'locked' to time. Exactly thirty minutes. That includes the commercial breaks. Once it's locked, we do a process in the Avid called 'up-res-ing' which is essentially throwing out the low resolution video images and re-digitizing only the video at a high resolution.

FMC: What resolution was it at before?

Ben: AVR-3S, (Avid Video Resolution), which is all pixelated and looks worse than VHS. But it's more than adequate to edit with.

FMC: And after up-resing?

Also in the second day, we output it from the Avid to create what's known as the 'textless master.' This just means it's the master tape but it doesn't have little titles at the bottom to tell you who the people are. Sometimes referred to 'chyrons' or 'lower thirds' or 'CG' (Character Generator).

After that, I'd be done, but the show isn't quite finished. The master tape I created would go to what's known as a 'linear bay' to create the on-air master. That includes the chyrons and all the great blurring that frustrates the viewers.

FMC: Who's job is that?

Ben: That's the online editor. We could do the blurring in the Avid, but it tends to be a little time consuming, and they'd rather have a master that's totally 'clean' with no text, no blurring, no nothing.

This is the same type of work flow for shows like one of E's shows called 'Wild On...' They too often have a lot of blurring or 'mosaic-ing' to do.

Stern is a pretty fast paced show, but because we're using the line cut, a lot of the work is done for us. This is also common work flow on sitcoms, where they very often also make fixes to a line cut.

FMC: What about longer shows like 'True Hollywood Stories?'

Ben: Well, at E it takes roughly five weeks to edit one episode. But, that's two shifts a day. So really, if it were one editor, it would probably total around ten weeks.

The difference between a show like 'Stern' and a 'True Hollywood Story' is that the producers come in with a script that's 90% 'locked,' meaning the script to that point has already been approved. It definitely doesn't mean there won't be changes, but it's pretty much there. The structure is there. So we're dealing with interviews and graphic elements, which are basically just photographs and other illustrative visuals that tell the story.

At E, those shows are totally completed in the Avid, just like Howard Stern is, wherein by the end of it, we create the textless master. So that means for an hour-long show, you're creating roughly 44 minutes of content, including all the music, any sound effects you might put in, doing all the color correction, putting moves on photos, doing all the sound mixing . . . everything, to make a completed show.

So then you still wonder, why does it take 5 weeks, two editors a day? Basically, it's because there's ALWAYS changes. Almost every day there's changes to the script. What happens is, we'll do some editing, then we'll create a VHS output for the executive producers to watch. And they give their notes. So between the producer's notes and the executive producer's notes, there's always something to change.

Plus, even though you've started editing, that doesn't mean all the visual elements are available yet. And there's the constant search for B-roll, which is extra non-interview video like home-movies or other video shot specifically for the show. Sometimes this includes re-enactments.

So a lot of times we're jumping throughout the show throughout the day, filling in the holes with what we have available to us that day. And did I mention that we're always making changes?!

And again, 'True Hollywood Stories,' like many shows at other networks, is created and output completely in the Avid.

FMC: You're talking a lot about Avid, which is obviously your area of expertise. But for many visitors to this web site, an Avid is out of their price range. What do you see as a reasonable way for a low budget or student filmmakers to cut their films? Are non-linear editing systems like Avid always best?

Ben: Well, I've cut on a flatbed, which is the way Steven Spieberg still cuts with Michael Kahn, his editor, and truly that's the original non-linear editing. That's one great inexpensive way to edit if you have that still available in your area. And one advantage to that, while it may be slower in many instances, the one thing you can be sure of is you're not going to have audio sync problems and you shouldn't have any mis-cut negative. Essentially you're working on work-print, which is a direct reference back to the negative.

So those problems are reduced greatly.

But again, it might be very hard to find a flatbed editing system around these days. Except maybe in LA or New York or other major cities.

FMC: Or some really under-financed film schools.

Ben: Yeah. But, I'll tell you, if you get something to cut on a flatbed, it's a worthwhile opportunity. The process is a lot slower, but if you're the one doing the editing, you really learn a lot about pacing, and sync, etc. And this technology isn't going away. On big budget features you generally have an Avid editing team, and you have a team of assistant editors who conform the workprint. So learning traditional film editing on a flatbed and the myriad of procedures, paperwork, and protocol are all very valuable pieces of knowledge that carry over to actual job opportunities and are worthwhile experiences for a nonlinear editor to have.

Avid and many other nonlinear editing systems work with an underlying old-school film logic. Two examples-- video and audio tracks behave just as they do in the real world (so sync issues still apply). Also Avid's 'storage containers' are called 'bins', just like they are in flatbed editing.

FMC: Why do feature films have a 'film team' if they are editing on an Avid?

Ben: Well, this is because cuts from scene-to-scene or shot-to-shot play very differently on the big screen than they do on a small television screen. So by conforming workprint, this allows the director, producers, and other film team members to watch the cut and evaluate it on the big screen, where it is destined to be shown.

FMC: But doesn't that add huge cost to the film, editing twice like that?

Ben: Definitely, but that's one reason big films cost $40 million or more. Low budget films don't have this luxury.

Right now, Avid is the top dog. But in the eyes of the low-budget filmmaker, everyone is rallying around Final Cut Pro and Premiere types of systems. And I also have been told about Broadcast, which runs in the Linux operating system and is completely free.

So there's a lot of tools out there. Is any one of them really the best? I think that if you like it and it's working for you and you're able to create with it easily, then it's the best because it's the best for you. I just happen to have gotten familiar with the Avid, so I'm quite biased.

I just recently took instruction for Final Cut Pro. It's a pretty great program for being so young.

FMC: Film school. Your thoughts, briefly.

Ben: Well, a good friend of mine used to joke that I was the poster boy for film education in Florida because I got a BA from University of Central Florida and an MFA at Florida State. So obviously I believe in education. For me it was a way to gain access to equipment and to meet other filmmakers, my fellow classmates. Ultimately I learned as much or more from my classmates as I did really from the faculty. What I learned was, it's less about what you read in the book and it's more about actually doing it, making a ton of mistakes, learning from those mistakes, and discussing it all with your friends.

That's just me. I was big into going to school. But school may not be for everybody, and I think you can learn just as much by reading on your own. Books like 'The Filmmaker's Handbook' by Pincus and Ascher and 'Non Linear 4' by Michael Rubin, in addition to shooting projects on video, editing them, and simply creating. Basically being Robert Rodreguez in his early days.

FMC: I am an aspiring film editor. What would you recommend I do to "make it" in this industry?

Ben: My bias is towards getting training first and then heading into the workplace. I see an awful lot of people trying to get into editing. They get that first job, but they just don't know enough and they make some crucial errors, and that might be the end of it.

Here's the biggest mistake that I've seen people make, and I can't count them all on one hand, especially several years ago. They edit a movie they want to ultimately project on film in the theater without fully understanding the audio considerations, specifically something called "pull-down,' and they don't understand how to verify the very important 'keycode' information that has to be dead-on accurate.

What happens is that they're really screwed. They might be able to fix it, but that fix more than likely will be very expensive.

FMC: I have to jump in and say I've seen this at least twice. People got some free Avid time and didn't really know what they were doing. As a result, they had a low-resolution edit with absolutely no way to match it to the film negative!

Ben: You're so right. Essentially, what readers want to be aware of is that if the data is garbage going in at the beginning of the project, it'll be garbage going out. So it's essential that great care is taken when transferring the film to video and later when digitizing that material.

If you ultimately want to make an actual film print to be projected in a theater, you need to slow down and seek out knowledgeable folks in your area for guidance and assistance. Things work pretty smoothly these days, but there's still a lot of pitfalls to be aware of. The last thing you want to do is cut up your negative and find out it's not it the way it's supposed to be cut. You've only got one negative.

I can't stress enough my bias towards education. So if it's Avid you're looking to learn, go to an Avid authorized education center. There's many around the US and the world. You can check Avid's website. But if you can't afford it, or there isn't one in your area, then definitely do some reading and experiment with some of the free editing systems that are out there, just to get familiar with the thought processes of working in a non-linear system.

Because honestly, they're all pretty similar. Some of the functions are named differently or they may have different logic about one operation or another, but in the end they all have to do the same thing. Some do it better than others, that's all.

FMC: Aside from Avid authorized education centers, where can the average Joe learn about Avid or editing in general?

Ben: A great place to learn the mechanics of editing is an extension class at your local college or junior college. Here in LA for example we have the UCLA Extension courses, and as far as editing goes, they very often have courses that range from flatbed editing to tape-to-tape editing, as well as Avid editing. Not to mention other classes that deal with the aesthetics and craft.

And don't forget to seek out independent filmmakers around your area via the Internet for example, because there's bound to be at least two other people of a like mind to you that have formed a group or organization who's goal is to foster independent filmmaking in your area.

FMC: And once they get some experience with editing? What then?

Ben: Here's a very common question I get? 'I've got some training, now how do I get my first editing job?' This question can come from absolute beginners to those who have actually been working as assistants for some time. My route to editing was very different, so I can't speak from experience, but I can tell you what's worked for friends of mine. It boils down to this?edit anything that you can.

But where can I find stuff to edit? In any city you're in there's always some sort of independent something going on. It might be a music video, or a short film, maybe it's a corporate thing. Just do whatever you can to get involved. For those first few projects, you're going to be working for free, or at least very cheap (maybe lunch and dinner) and that's ok. Because what you're gaining is experience with a client, because it's a very different thing interpreting someone else's vision as they sit over your shoulder.

The more that you edit, you'll gain more contacts, and you'll be surprised how quickly the word spreads if you're good. So either you'll pick up work that way, or you'll be able to take the stuff that you cut for free, and make a demo reel.

FMC: An idea that just occurred to me is to edit reels for other people?if you have other filmmaker friends and you're looking for practice (especially in LA or NY) there are tons of people who would love to have a reel cut for free. But in your opinion, is it necessary to move to Los Angeles to be an editor?

Ben: Absolutely not. There's editing being done in every city, whether it be news, corporate, commercials, TV shows, or movies.

FMC: Speaking of demo reels, can you give us some idea of what should go into one?

You know, I'm going to defer to someone who has put it together much better than I probably could. And that's Ron Diamond, who's a contributor to the book 'Nonlinear 4.' So check out that book, it's $35 well-spent, and it includes a section on creating effective demo reels.

FMC: And what kind of kick-back do you get for that endorsement?

Ben: I wish I did. I plug the book so much to students because I came out of film school with very little knowledge of video. And even though the title is Nonlinear Version 4, it really contains an incredible amount of useful information on other issues, including video, and was one of my prime resources when I was getting up to speed on video-related stuff, which come into play whether you're making a film or a video project.

For example, I tell people, if I say words like 'non-drop frame timecode' or 'TBC' or 'vector scope, or Flex file, or Keycode,' and you're really not sure what these things are, you better learn it.

FMC: Even if all you want to do is make movies?

Ben: Definitely. You need to be able to work in any environment because you can't make a living just as a film editor starting off. So a lot of that work is going to be in corporate or cable or network.

And it's not just about learning one computer program. The editor is called upon to utilize multiple programs to create the finished product. So aside from knowing video and editing software, it can't hurt to become familiar with additional media creation applications like Photoshop, After Effects, Illustrator, and those types of programs.

Because in every market, there are companies that are looking for a one-woman-band that can do it all for them. This is the changing face of editing, really.

FMC: Do you see video replacing film anytime soon?

Ben: I certainly have a romantic notion when it comes to film, and I honestly don't believe it'll disappear as an artistic medium. But I think with the wave of video technology, hi-definition, and the ability to project high-quality video images in the theater, not to mention the ability for a studio to literally beam a movie from LA to Singapore for screening, it's just something that isn't going to go away.

But be assured, film is not going to be a dead medium for a good many, many years for a variety of reasons.

FMC: Ok, now let's talk numbers. How much does an editor get paid?

Depending on the market you're in and the type of content you're creating, your pay might be anywhere from $25/hr to $100/hr. There's a union that determines that as well, and they have set pay scales.

If I haven't plugged 'Nonlinear 4' enough, here's one more time. Ron Diamond discusses this issue in a little more depth in that book as well.

FMC: Is being an editor anything like you thought it would be when you first started out?

Ben: In some respects, yes. But the biggest surprise is how much it's about communication with the client and making sure you can interpret what their wants and needs are. And not to just do that, but to attempt to make it even better than they thought it could be.

FMC: Are you doing what you want to be doing?

Ben: I think if I continued down this track the rest of my life, I'd be doing pretty good. I'm definitely in with a good group of people, and if I were to devote 100% to editing, I think (hope) I could continue to move up.

Certainly a big part of me also enjoys directing, which I've been able to do on several of my own films as well as several projects for my own clients. So I recently left E Entertainment in order to spend some time focusing on doing more directing. Though I'm definitely still teaching and freelance editing.

FMC: Thanks for answering these questions. Last one -- Do you have any final thoughts that you think might be of interest/benefit to the readers? Or anything you want to mention in general?

I think that anyone who wants to get into editing should get some training, if only to see if this is something that excites them. I don't mean just being in a classroom, I mean getting a part or full time job in a post production facility or maybe at a TV news station. Anything, just so they can see what an editor really does, what the hours are like, etc. I mean, you're in a dark room all day, and if you're freelancing, a day might be anywhere from twelve to sixteen hours or more. Staff jobs can be just as challenging. It depends on the facility.

And if there's anyone out there who's using the Avid already and wants a couple of free tips and tricks, you can visit my web site at http://www.hershleder.com. And those of you looking for Avid education information, I also have some good resources there too.

FMC: Cool, thanks a lot!